Andrea:

 The best counsel in this matter is one I have given my seminary interns. Do not sit around awaiting the church/organization/system to offer you a job. You are correct the PCUSA, among others, seek entertainment for education, and institutional survival at the expense of all else.

 You must become your own advocate and what I call a religious "entrepreneur" , you must find the need, the place, the ministry and make it happen, create your own task and address what need to be addressed. Then, and only then approach the organization or institution for validation. If forthcoming great, if not, shake the dust off and move along.

 The day and age that the system or institution will employ educated professionals due to the fact they are educated professionals is past, that church is dead and not coming back.

 There are legions of young ,excited, fresh and hopeful graduates sitting around awaiting the phone to ring, waiting for jobs that no longer exist and will never return. Make the future happen for yourself.

Peter Gregory

Thanks, Mark, for this article. It seems to me that a large part of this challenge is the church's unwillingness to leave behind the attractional church model that has been so prevalent for so long. We need to fully embrace the missional church model. Only then will we begin to see a new future for our educational ministries. Unfortunately, the attractional model is comfortable and easy. It's easy to develop and maintain programs; anyone can do that, professional or not, and the denomination will help you with this. It is much more difficult to develop people and make disciples. It requires a different measuring stick and a completely different way of thinking about educational ministry. I am a young professional educator, and I don't know what my future holds. I hope that it will involve being part of a church that wants to use me to bless their community rather than to provide "edutainment" to the church. I hope that it will involve being part of a church that would rather send people out than bring people in. I hope that it will involve being part of a church that values faith formation at home more than it values maintaing Sunday School attendance. Sadly, I see very few PC(USA) churches that are interested in any of these ideas, and I do not see that the denomination has any interest in changing things either. We don't need more curriculum options; we need support for doing ministry in new and innovative ways (or, more accurately, old ways that are new to us). My (admittedly cynical) impression is that Lousiville wants to sell curriculum and maintain the institution. As you said, this will not serve us well. I believe that we need both local and denominational leaders who will risk the institution and its programs for the sake of the gospel. I'll work hard for a church like that. For anything else, my motivation runs dry.

Andrea Hall

It is not that the need or call for professionally educated and trained clergy people (teaching elders) has diminished. Nor has the opportunities for "ministry" gone into smoke. What has changed is the business/economic model which assumed all educated and trained clergy/church educators will have careers in church based work that pays full benefits and a living wage in and or itself. Today many who attend Seminaries will never go into church based work, nor have any desire too. Some are doctors, lawyers, nurses who will take theological education to apply in their own career patterns. That is the future. And it is now.

Peter Gregory

Mark, many thanks for a thoughtful, imaginative and historical piece on the changing nature of church educator roles. The only thing I wanted to add was that I resonated with this changing reality as a pastor. The era of professional pastoral ministry is also fading away in many of our churches. The profession continues to be strong in our bigger churches and that's great. But what's happening in our smaller churches is an opportunity for unleashing the power of the priesthood of the believers for those churches who are able to embrace it.
Thanks again for the article.

Steve Willis

Again, where did Gosnell ply his trade? Not the leafy suburbs but the inner city with a primarily hispanic immigrant population base who paid in cash. The Pa. abortion control act is one of the most restrictive in the nation. What finally got him in trouble was not so much his medical practice, but he was initially caught in medicaid fraud, tax issues, which then lead to the investigation to house of horrors and baby's in trash bags and in sinks.

 All that Row vs Wade ever did was more or calcify public opinion in never ending warring tribes and camps. But what social/religious liberals fail to grasp is that the Gosnell case cannot be spun or messaged by Planned Parenthood and their apologists into more progressive abortion policies. The practice of abortion, be it in the Gosnell house of horrors, a 5 star hospital in the suburbs, or in an outpatient setting is indeed the most barbaric act tolerated in American culture. Animal shelters that euthanize pets are given more oversight than outpatient abortion providers. If the Gosnell case advances that discussion, so much the better.

Peter Gregory

In a day and age where the high water mark of American Protestantism has receded for 6 decades the actual physical location of a denominational HQ, be it NYC, Atlanta, or the craters of Mars has ever increasing irrelevancy. Brick and mortar physical structures will continue to have less relevance in a church which will be marked by a decentralization of power and far less emphasis on connectionism for a variety of reasons.

 The PCUSA may lament the current state of affairs, but the reality is the GA, HQ, Synods and Presbyteries are all in conflict fighting over diminishing financial resources and cash flow streams as it moves along the chain, with each level of the matrix feeling a sense of entitlement to a continued funding stream.

 Louisville is the home for now, that may or may be going forward, and that will be a purely financial decision if made and will have very little to do with vision, theology, gates and castles.

Peter Gregory

In the few weeks this has been out I have gotten scores of responses, most to me, vice the website, and vast majority very supportive of my comments.

 When I wrote this my intent was not to propose an new policy or agenda regarding the concept or idea of "marriage" either as a secular or religious construct. Simply to spark discussion and thought, discourse. In the hot-house of all sex, all the time in the PCUSA, now gay marriage liturgies and the Book of Order, all the oxygen is more or less sucked out of any room for rational discussion. People are tired, the church exhausted and all more or less shut-up.

 While at the same time the roles, concepts, and structures of ministry practices are changing under our feet, with or without our permission. Where does religious clergy factor in the public
square? What is our function in the greater social/ethical debates of the age? Where exactly do we stand as professionals in the age of the dying embers of main-stream American Protestantism. Who will survive and who will not?

 As much as some may wish to wax and wane on the impact of gay/lesbian marriage and its impact on the "traditional" institution. It is the behaviors and consumption/consumerism of heterosexual Millennials/Gen Y, many churched raised, that is causing the greatest harm or change to what is traditionally defined as "marriage".

Peter Gregory

For the past four years I have been part of a clergy/professional accountability group with 6 other area clergy. I am the only PCUSAer. SB/UCC/ABC/ELCA/ELCA/RC. I find the relationships and spiritual connections far more satisfying and far more healthy on a personal and professional level than anything going on at Presbytery. There is lesson and message in that.

Peter Gregory

Over the last few years these have been some of my same thoughts. It irks me to hear someone say "oh what nice windows you" or "what a nice setting this church has". The fact that it is a church or that God is to be worship during the wedding ceremony seems to be of secondary nature. My feeling somewhere along the line are the same as yours asking the couple to go be married by the state as it should be and if you want the church involved please return and the church will properly bless what the state has done.

Rev Paul Kirker

Thanks for this article, and the truth it tells for laity and clergy alike. I am currently a full time graduate student at UDTS in Dubuque, and appreciate the opportunity to learn in a Presbyterian Seminary that teaches in the Reformed tradition.

However, I am also a full time law enforcement officer, husband and father. The importance of this education can't be overstated, and neither can the call for support of these institutions and students.

Because I am a distance student, there are many scholarship opportunities that are't available, and this makes the hardship of affording this education an ongoing reality.

I have been blessed with some funds I didn't expect, but will still pay for the greatest majority of my MDiv myself. That's perfectly fine with me, however many aren't in the same position and struggle much more than myself.

I can't imagine that distance education will ever cease to exist, especially with so many folks recognizing their call as a second career and at least temporarily occupying a position in life that will not let them move their families to a seminary to complete their education.

To that end, I would ask your readers to recognize that our seminaries are invaluable resources to our denomination. So are the folks who are answering God's call and walking through their doors. As such, please consider not only supporting these institutions, but the students that need your prayers, your love, and your financial support.

In Christ's service,
John Craft

I was insulted when I saw I was listed on the wedding planner's list as a "vendor" along with the florist, caterer, and so on. My arrival times and instructions were indicated on her chart along with theirs. I pointed this out to her as an insult to the religious nature of the service and the ordination of clergy, and made sure I directed the rehearsal and worship service.

Becky Kiser

As an alumni ('83, M.Div.) I give reluctantly every year to the PTS Annual Fund. But I wouldn't recommend this seminary to my own daughter who is interested in theological education. The main reasons -- lack of care or interest in spiritual formation of students and the seeming inability to face a future where preparation for full time pastorates and seminary degrees are becoming increasingly irrelevant. I'm glad to see Craig Barnes address both of these at least in passing.

Judie Ritchie

It's easy to despair of marriage today, given the high rate of divorce even among self-designated "evangelicals!" But, to refuse entirely to undertake the legal duties of performing a wedding, and thus, Jonah-like, to reject God's frequent calls to proclaim Christ's good news and gracious will to a couple in love--is that any solution?
In over 40 years of ministry I've welcomed such opportunities--in premarital sessions with the couple, required of all PCUSA ministers; in reading scripture to the assembled wedding party at the rehearsal; and especially in the brief, expository "sermons" (often my text has been John 2:1-11) that both the Directory for Worship (Book of Order) and the 1993 Book of Common Worship declare are the pastor/presider's prerogative. Clergy can underscore the gospel by insisting that an easy, Christ-centered, familiar hymn be sung by the entire congregation at a wedding, and even a brief invitation to commitment to Christ be extended. It has been a delight, too, at a rehearsal, carefully to explain the historical and biblical meaning of each part of the wedding ceremony, whether one is using or adapting Rite I or Rite II. I've discovered pleasantly that even agnostic, church drop-out
families and friends of the couple welcome such positive proclamation and witness. Acting as an agent of the state in declaring the couple legally wedded, and in signing officially the license, are but minor, but venerable, added duties of my calling.

Dwyn Mounger

In my case, it appears that the wedding industry has moved beyond the walls of the church to be observed in places of business like Home Depot and Target. I've been ordained for 37 years. And I have not been asked to do a single wedding within the church in the past five years.

Murray Thompson

Hey, Pete! I think you might appreciate Gene Robinson's discussion of this topic in his new book, "God Believes in Love: Straight Talk About Gay Marriage". Personally, I think we should embrace the practice of marriages taking place during "Responding to the Word" in the regular Lord's Day service (see DFW), but remarkably, few people agree with me!

Lori Ruff-Schmalenberger

Rev. Gregory, I applaud your stance. As a candidate for ministry, I am keenly aware of the theological issues vs. the issues of personal financial interest and cultural excesses. One of my Divinity School classmates declined to perform his first wedding, because the couple had no connection to his church except to admire its aesthetics. I pray that I will have half the courage that you and he have shown.

Glyndon Morris

Seminary enrollment trends are subject to the same economic and cultural trends as other professions. Law school admissions and those in Journalism schools reflect the same trends. You have a current supply excess (clergy) chasing too few demand (churches/opportunities). That may change over time, may not.

 The current crises in the profession of PCUSA clergy is not seminary related. It is that PCUSA clergy are one of the few, if only professions that post a graduate degree place no requirements on its members for either professional development or core professional competency. It is like assuming a doctor or dentist can graduate from medical school and never attend another training or continuing ed. program over 40 years and still maintain a license or professional standards.

 The end result is that after a time in ministry you have your professional class exhausted, burnt-out, in ill health emotionally, if not physically and spiritually. The BOP will tell you that out of every 100 ordinations when a person is in their 20's, only about 5-10% will ever qualify for retirement benefits. You have a profession/career patterns with 90-95% loss, attrition before retirement, you have a crises of leadership and death of a profession. The PCUSA may or may not be on a path to extinction. The profession of ordained clergy in the PCUSA surely is.

What does everyone think of this article?

Fairly compensating (all) human beings.

Not mentioned in this article are Presbyterian affiliated boarding schools such as Blair Academy, of which I happen to serve as a Trustee. Though Blair tends to be interfaith in student composition, primarily Roman Catholic and Protestant in its Christian witness, the school more than Presbyterian Church has expressed interest in retaining its church connection. Rather than disengage from Presbyterian boarding schools, colleges and universities, my hope is that the General Assembly will asked ho we might foster and cultivate stronger connections with these schools, many which provide extraordinary education and, at least in Blair's case, send their students onto schools of higher education. Hopefully, the General Assembly will recognize what jewel we have in these fine schools.

David Harvey